ClimbTalk transcript
ClimbTalk: Tom Hanson & Jason Haas

The following is the full transcript of the Tom Hanson (TH) and Jason Haas (JH) interview on ClimbTalk on KVCU 1190 AM, Boulder, Colorado, Feb. 5, 2010. If you’re interested in some of their favorite routes, a bit of Colorado rock climbing history, and some light-hearted and heart-pounding stories, check it. The Interviewers are Mike Brooks (MB) and Krys 'Smokey' Obrzut (S).
Recorded and transcribed by Dave McAllister, PFR Pump Factory Road.

MB: Welcome to ClimbTalk radio. This is Mike Brooks, and tonight I’m here with Tom Hanson and Jason Haas. Jason and Tom are first ascent climbers in areas like Castlewood Canyon State Park and the Flatirons in Boulder, Colorado. Tom, Jason, thank you for joining us.

JH: Thanks for having us.

TH: Thanks, Mike. It’s a pleasure and honor to be here.

MB: So, Smokey, have you been to the Flatirons? Have you climbed down at Castlewood Canyon?

S: Driving to Shelf [Road] we think about it a lot. I haven’t made it down there, yet.

MB: Tom, is Shelf different than Castlewood Canyon? Tell us about it.

TH: Well, the routes at Shelf are a little bit longer. There’re obviously more sport routes at Shelf. Castlewood Canyon has about 130 bolted sport climbs. The rock, I would say it’s of a similar quality. Some of the rock at Castlewood Canyon can be loose, at best, but you have to search out the good stone. There’s some really good climbing down there.

MB: You say the rock is loose. Does that mean that the bolts, some of the anchors might be loose?

TH: Now that you mentioned that, many of the anchors there, some of the routes at Castlewood were established back in the ‘80s. Some of the those bolts are getting to be about 25 years old and we’re currently working on replacing some of those anchors down at the Canyon. Some of the bolts look like they did the day they were put in. And then, some of the routes have seen heavy use, have a little bit more of a water course running along them, a little more oxidization, and we’ve been replacing those.

MB: Jason, you’ve put in first ascents in the Flatirons. Tell us about that. I hear you have a new guidebook out?

JH: Yeah, it’s the new color guidebook through Sharp End [Publishing]. There’re about 900 routes in there, there are probably about 300 new ones since the last guidebook, and I guess I would have contributed to about 50 to 60 of those. Not many of them are worth repeating, though.

MB: Why do you say that?

JH: They were mostly looked over before. They’re a little bit more scary [sic], in terms of protection. The OSMP has some tight regulations around bolting, which kind of suits my style with a little bit more scary head space kind of climbing. So, the gear is either non-existent, or the rock quality is not very good, and the hikes are long, at times.

MB: How about something like the Matron or the Maiden? Tom, didn’t you do some first ascents on some of those rocks?

TH: I did do a first ascent that Jason has in his new guide. It’s actually an old route that we did about 25 years ago. It’s one that kind of scared the pants off myself and my buddy. It goes up the north face of the Maiden. It does the north face traverse to about where the tree is; then it takes off straight up, maybe angling a little bit right from there. Having talked to Jason tonight – he’s recently done the route – and he confirms that it’s scary. And coming from Jason, I think that’s pretty impressive. It makes me think that I used to be a lot more bold [sic] than I am now.

MB: What was the name of that route? Who did you do that with?

TH: I did that with a late friend of mine, named Mark Johler, and we named the route Thanatos, a Freudian term meaning “death wish.”

MB: A good name.

TH: Yeah, a little film noir, a little climber’s black humor there.

MB: You did a guidebook to Castlewood. Tell us about that.

TH: My guidebook is by no means new. I’ve been basically publishing the same guide for about 15 years now. It’s the little yellow guide to Castlewood Canyon, and, like I said, there’re about 130 sport routes there, but there’s seven miles of cliff line and everything can be top-roped. There’re just thousands of boulder problems there. And the fact that I live less than a mile, as the crow flies, from Castlewood, makes it kind of my back yard; my home spot.

MB: Seven miles of cliff line; that’s a lot of climbing.

TH: Yeah, it is a lot of climbing. I mean, nothing gets much taller than 60/70 feet, but when you have seven miles of that type of cliff, there’s a lot of climbing to be found.

MB: I think I could say that you were a part of the glory days of Castlewood Canyon. Tell us about that.

TH: We kind of had free access to the Canyon before the 1989 Colorado State Parks moratorium on bolting. Basically, I had been climbing down at Shelf a couple of times and had been bouldering and doing some trad routes at Castlewood Canyon and thought, “Boy, this sport-climbing thing, we can do this at Castlewood.” So, we started bolting routes and in about three or four years we had over 100 routes in before the State Parks kind of shut us down with the bolting.

MB: So, that was back when there was no ban on bolting?

TH: No ban. No real policy regarding it whatsoever. And Castlewood Canyon actually has been a climbing area for a long time. It’s been used by the Colorado Mountain Club for many years. From what I understand, there’s a climber named Fred Crowley – I think he dates back at least as far as the early 60s, if not before that. I’ve never met Fred, but he was a local climber that introduced the Colorado Mountain Club to the area. In fact, even my guidebook was about the fifth publication that covers the Canyon. It’s the most inclusive, but the Colorado Mountain Club developed an area called the Grocery Store Wall that probably had 100 routes on it, before we started climbing there.

MB: And that’s in Castlewood Canyon State Park, southeast of Denver.

TH: Yeah, it’s just a little bit to the east of Castle Rock, believe it or not. You wouldn’t think there would be a climbing area out there, but its where Cherry Creek cuts down through the Palmer Divide and exposes these cliffs of conglomerate sandstone unique to the area. Lots of cobbles.

MB: Cobbles?

TH: Round rocks that are imbedded into the matrix of the sandstone. They almost look like water polished rocks sticking right out of the face of the rocks that you can utilize as handholds. Kind of unique.

MB: Jason, are there any cobbles in the Flatirons?

JH: Actually, yeah, there [are] some bands of it. Depending on the aspect of the rock that you’re facing, a lot of times that forms on generally either the north face or west face of the rocks, especially behind the East Ironing Board. It has some good stuff…a lot of cobbles. Some of the harder routes up there.

MB: You were talking earlier about some of your routes. Some of your routes could be said to be dangerous. And therefore, a lot of people won’t climb them. I interviewed a California first ascenter, and this gentleman came to the realization that he wanted people to climb his routes, so he started making them safer. What’re your thoughts on that, Jason?

JH: Well, I don’t have a problem with other people’s style. Maybe I’m, perhaps, a little too lazy to bolt myself. I just like the aspect of the unknown and the adventure side of things. So, that’s what works for me today. I’m a little bit younger and maybe, perhaps, a little bit dumber. So, I’m willing to take those risks right now. But, I’ve been climbing a lot in the South Platte lately, and replacing some bolts down there and working on a guidebook for there. And talking to some of the old first ascensionists, they kind of regret their run-out routes, because people aren’t repeating them. Looking back on that, 20/30 years later, [they] really wish that they had done them in a different style. So, I think there’s something to be said for that, of looking back on your routes.

MB: Tom, climbing in Castlewood: What does the typical climber need to look out for? What are the objective dangers?

TH: Well, I think a lot of the rock has really cleaned up, so there’s not so much loose climbing anymore. I really think of Castlewood as a winter climbing area. It has one of the warmest climates on this side of Shelf Road, which is considered Colorado’s “banana belt.” Castlewood can often be the same way. But, in the summertime you really have to be aware of rattlesnakes. One day in particular, we encountered 28 rattlesnakes in one day. The place can really be infested in the warm summer months.

MB: What about you, Jason? What are the dangers in the Flatirons that we need to know?

JH: I haven’t seen any rattlesnakes! I’ve seen a couple bears and a couple mountain lions, but not really a whole lot of dangers there. A lot of those sport routes – the really quality lines – have all gotten updated hardware, thanks to some select individuals, especially Matt Samet and the ARI.

MB: What’s the ARI?

JH: The Anchor Replacement Initiative. They’re headed up by Climbing magazine and mostly Matt Samet.

MB: Are they affiliated with the FCC (Flatirons Climbing Council)?

JH: Yeah, they work jointly with the ARI, sometimes. Matt Samet is on the climbing board, I’m on the board, as well, with the FCC, and so we have a tight relationship working with them and with the Open Space to get new bolts in there.

MB: So, gentlemen, tell us again about your guidebooks. Where can people buy them?

TH: My Castlewood Canyon guidebook is currently available at the Castlewood Canyon visitor’s center. There’s a lot of climbing websites around, and if someone posts on there I can always mail them a guidebook. Frontrangebouldering.com is always a good one.

MB: What about you, Jason?

JH: You can pick up the Flatirons guide in any of the local shops, from REI to Neptune’s to Bent Gate, anything like that.

MB: My old radio partner and I used to ask all our guests: ‘Tell us an exciting, dangerous, necky story.’ Tom, what do you got?

TH: Believe it or not, I’ve never really taken a leader fall, so I can’t brag about scary things like that. I’ve had a lot of contemplations of serious falls, but I’ve always been very lucky. My biggest dangers are rattlesnakes. I one time had a friend of mine – I had just lowered off a climb, and I was untying – meanwhile, while I was up at the top of the route, he had managed to catch a rattlesnake and he was holding it behind its head. While I was untying from the rope after finishing this route, the snake twisted its head funny, freaked out my friend…he lobbed the snake. I was standing in the wrong spot and it bounced off my shoulder. At that point I was doing something known as the “snake dance.”

MB: Is that a true story, Tom?

TH: Absolutely true story.

MB: What about you, Jason? What do you got?

JH: When I was working on the Flatirons guidebook, the best and worst thing to happen to me was having Tony Bubb as my climbing partner. He was just as thorough and meticulous as I was. When we would come across a route that hadn’t been done, he had to do it. We got on a lot of scary stuff that I would never repeat, even some of it on top rope. Very necky. I remember particularly, we did a 60 foot flake. The entire thing went from tight hands to tight fists, depending on how hard you squeezed, and cams dropped out the entire way. Actually, I seconded that pitch – scared the whole way.

MB: You say cams dropped out, that means the rock moved?

JH: The rock moved, yeah. 40 feet off the ground I could flex a 60 foot long flake that was two and a half feet thick.

MB: Where is some of the good climbing in the Flatirons here in Boulder, Colorado, for the average beginner or inexperienced climber? Where’s the good stuff?

JH: The good stuff is everywhere; it really depends on what you’re looking for. The east face is what everybody sees, it’s the low angle stuff. The First and Third Flatirons are the most popular, for good reasons. Pretty much everything on the Third Flatiron itself is a classic route, from the 4th class 5.2 routes to the 5.11s and 5.12s.

S: The Follies…

JH: Yup, Friday’s and Saturday’s Folly are classic.

MB: That’s on the back of the Third Flatiron.

JH: It is on the back, yes. If you continue back into the Ironing Boards, [they] have really good stuff. And if you continue over to Dinosaur Rock right now – Dinosaur Mountain – all have phenomenal new sport routes going in thanks to the Flatirons Climbing Council working with the OSMP, in Boulder, to make that happen. If you continue on over to Seal Rock, [it] has some phenomenal routes waiting to go in, right now, and some of the best stone in the Front Range, in my opinion.

MB: Gentlemen, if you had to mention the top five sport or trad routes in your respective areas, what would you say? Tom?

TH: Sport routes, my favorites: Pay Homage, .12a; Professor Plum, also a .12a; Subterfuge, .11d; The Sub is a classic .12d. Those are the good routes, and the others that I’ve enjoyed have been up at Devil’s Head, but that’s a little off track. A lot of trad climbing there that’s been enjoyable. The sport routes at Castlewood…I like the area called Sea World. It has several good routes from about .11a to .12b. And Morning Sun Wall, three of the four routes there are very good, and they’re probably .10d to .11b.

MB: What about you, Jason?

JH: Man, there are so many quality lines. I would have to go with some of the standard classics, like the Direct East Face of the First Flatiron, or the Standard East Face of the Third Flatiron. [They] are classic by any definition. Death and Transfiguration is an amazing .11b. It’s pumpy and it’s kind of on from the word ‘go.’ It’s a great route. More modernly, Milk Bone is a neo-classic .13a, over on Dinosaur Rock. I haven’t heard anything bad about it, yet.

MB: Milk Bone? Who put that in?

JH: That’s a Matt Samet route, as well.

MB: You’re listening to ClimbTalk on KVCU Boulder, I’m Mike Brooks. We’re talking with Jason Haas and Tom Hanson. Tom and Jason are first ascent climbers in Castlewood Canyon, and Jason in the Flatirons here in Boulder. Gentleman, what else can we talk about?

S: I have a question for Tom. What’s it like to be on a bolting committee?

TH: Well, it’s kind of a loosely knit bolting committee, some of the regulars at Castlewood Canyon and myself. Todd Anderson, Mike Lane, these are two of the gentleman that I originally put in a lot of these routes with, back in the 80s. It’s kind of fun, and it’s kind of come full circle now that 20/25 years later we’re actually replacing these bolts because they’ve become antiquated hardware. At the time, we never really thought about it. We just figured they were bolts, and they were permanent, and they’d be there forever. But there’s a lot of wear and tear, and the routes, some of them have become more popular than we first anticipated, and they require replacing. It’s kind of a public service. I think sometimes bolting a sport route can be a public service in itself. It depends on people’s reasons for putting them in, but… It’s a good reason to get out; it’s nice to know that people are going to be safe on into the future on climbs that I established. By merely establishing them, I feel a sort of responsibility there, too.

MB: That’s interesting, Tom. So, Jason, there’s closures in the Flatirons right now. What’s that all about? Should people stay out of there?

JH: Absolutely. The closures are for nesting birds of prey, which include peregrines, prairie falcons, everything like that. Climbers have, in the past, unfortunately, poached climbing access, and it was not discreet. The rangers know that you’re there, especially on the Third Flatiron. People can see you from the city of Boulder. That sets a really bad precedent for climbers with both the Park Service and users in general, the hikers and anyone else out in the parks. It’s the last thing that the climbers need, and the FCC does a lot to try and educate people that the Third Flatiron right now is closed, Skunk Canyon, ridges one, two, three and four are closed, and areas like that.

MB: When are they going to open up, Jason?

JH: They open August 1st, unless the Park Service sees that the nests do not hatch any new fledglings, and they’ll open up early. Traditionally, one to two formations get opened up sometime in early July to mid-July. Generally, that includes the Maiden or the Matron, something like that.

MB: You heard it, Flatiron climbers. The Flatirons are closed until August 1st. How about Castlewood Canyon, Tom? There any closures down there?

TH: We have some closures from time to time. Newly purchased land that was purchased east of the bridge on Highway 83 – it’s the old Parker Road that goes down to Colorado Springs – everything east of the canyon is basically off-limits, unless it’s by a guided tour. There’s really not much in the way of developed climbing down there. There have, off and on over the years, been some closures for peregrine falcon nesting, some great horned owls. Currently, there might be one crag, called Porky’s Wall in the lower canyon, might be off-limits right now. Generally, park management will let us know and we’ll get it published out there on the websites. They also put a sign in front of the trail and let people know that the particular crag is closed.

MB: Guided tour, you don’t need no [sic] stinking guiding tour. What’s that all about, Tom?

TH: Actually, they found some archaeological remnants and some endangered flora, from what I understand, over in that part of the park. They haven’t really been more forthcoming than that, but I haven’t taken the tour yet. I’m really looking forward to it. They have a great program down there, great park naturalist Ron Clawson, who knows a lot about the area. Basically, as soon as the spring comes and they start offering those hikes, I’m signing up.

MB: There’s a lot of endangered flora here in Boulder, as well. We’re here in the winter in Boulder, Colorado. When the spring comes, what do you got, Jason? You’re developing stuff down in the Platte, you said?

JH: That’s my primary focus right now. I like to climb new routes that I haven’t done before, so it lends itself to writing guidebooks that need to be updated. The Platte just happens to fit that category right now, so I’m spending a lot of time climbing down there, both some established lines and picking a lot of quality plums that haven’t been done, from quite moderate terrain of 5.8/5.9 to pushing the limits of what I can do.

MB: Platte climbing. Tell us about that. Where is the Platte?

JH: The South Platte is a huge area; it’s about 45 square miles. It runs from just south of Denver, kind of near the Evergreen/Conifer area and goes all the way down to Colorado Springs, near Woodland Park, and over to Lake George, where Turkey Rocks is. It’s quite massive in scale.

MB: So, that doesn’t include the Rampart Range?

JH: It does. There’s an area called Devil’s Head, which is geographically in the South Platte. Geologically, it is different than the majority of the Platte rock. It’s a little bit steeper, doesn’t form as many cracks, kind of more patina’d edges. It lends itself more to sport climbing than the rest of the South Platte.

MB: What’s patina?

JH: Imagine alligator skin. There are little seems and ripples that form really nice in-cut edges, and kind of steeper faces than the typical low-angle domed South Platte rock.

MB: Tom, you mentioned Devil’s Head. Did you do some adventuring down there?

TH: I used to be a pretty big activist in putting in sport routes down there, but it got pretty time consuming and it was a lot of work. After a while, I just wanted to start climbing again. To me, the most rewarding climbing that I’ve done at Devil’s Head has been a lot of the 1 to 3 pitch trad routes. Definitely, the most memorable climbing. That’s probably my favorite climbing, too. I’m kind of limited to summers and don’t get out as much as I used to, so if I can get out a handful of times to Devil’s Head this summer, I will. But I don’t focus on the sport routes there anymore, I just do trad.

MB: So, you guys are tradsters! What is trad climbing? How would you explain that to someone who doesn’t know?

JH: Defining something like that is a really gray area these days. I think, 20 years ago there was a very distinct line of, ‘Okay, I climb cracks and I put protection that I can remove into the rock, and that’s trad climbing.’ And there’s a lot of ground up ethic with that. Then, there was sport climbing, which maybe was ground up, or maybe rappel bolting. But it was always fixed hardware of these bolts going into rock that couldn’t be protected otherwise. Today, I think the line’s been blurred, that trad climbing mostly just means you’re using removable protection for the most part, but you’re using all these techniques that people get from bouldering, from sport climbing, from trad climbing, and you’re just trying to increase your schema and your repertoire of skills to try and climb the rock a little bit more on the rock’s terms. Meaning, you take gear placements when you can and if there’s not, then you don’t. I think that’s where trad’s heading these days.

MB: Jason, are you saying that it takes more technique to climb trad?

JH: Absolutely.

MB: You are?

JH: I am…well…I wouldn’t say that it necessarily takes more technique. Although, I would say the higher level trad routes, you need to be good at sport climbing and you need to good at bouldering and you need to be good at trad climbing because there’s a lot more of a mental aspect of things, but there’s also skill sets that you’re not going to find necessarily in sport climbing alone. Such as some jamming, or something like that. The higher level trad routes, you need a lot of power that comes from bouldering or sport climbing. So, again, all those lines are getting blurred with the way that people are pushing standards these days. But, the mental aspect of trad is much more difficult than sport climbing.

MB: What’re your thoughts on that, Tom?

TH: I wholeheartedly agree. Like Jason was saying, when you’re trad climbing, placing your gear as you go, the rock tends to dictate the protection. A lot of these routes that Jason is doing, he’s not tooting his own horn too much, but there’re some pretty long run-outs above protection. For example, the belayer stands at the bottom, feeds the rope out as the climber climbs up, if he puts up a piece of gear, climbs 20 feet above it, falls, he’s gonna fall 20 feet below that piece of gear. Plus, some additional rope stretch. Some of these routes that Jason has been doing, a lot of routes that he’s been repeating and doing on his own in the South Platte, are probably even getting beyond that point. Some long run-outs. He mentioned a 60 foot expanding flake that all the gear would come rattling out as soon as he’d put a fist jam in there – that’s the type of thing I’m talking about. You have to keep your head together because in certain situations, if you fall, you will die.

MB: And that’s best to be avoided here on ClimbTalk and on the crags. We’re talking to Jason Hass, he has a guidebook out to the Flatirons here in Boulder, and Tom Hanson, Castlewood Canyon guidebook author. What do you think, Smokey? What do you think about our guests tonight?

S: Our guests have been fantastic. Thanks for coming in, guys.

MB: Gentlemen, thank you for all your new routes that you’ve put in in all those respective climbing areas. You’re listening to ClimbTalk. See you next week.

AFTER THE SHOW…
TH: Is that a wrap? Thanks, you bastards! Did you guys ever hear that before…radio bloopers? They thought they were off the air on some kid’s show, and the guy’s talking all sweet to the kids, and he said, ‘Is that a wrap? Good, that ought to hold the little bastards.’ And he was still on the air…

General laughter…

recorded and transcribed by Dave McAllister PFR Pump Factory Road - 2-05-10